Trans rights have become something that’s argued about in the abstract—are Democrats too far out on a limb defending them? Did they cost the Democrats 2024? Should they be more moderate in 2026? But the real-world effects of changing laws are anything but abstract, affecting the basics of public life like your ID and whether you can use the bathroom.

Guest: M Gessen, opinion columnist for the New York Times.

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Podcast production by Evan Campbell, Madeline Thames-Ducharme and Patrick Fort.

Paige Osburn is the senior supervising producer of What Next and What Next TBD.